cnvarbiter ([info]cnvarbiter) wrote,
@ 2008-05-19 08:25:00
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The proper role for government
Okay, so the first question from the Liberty poll:

Agree or Disagree - "There is a proper role for government, but that role is much smaller then the role government plays at present."

Agree with both pieces of that statement. Of course, most Americans would probably agree with part two. The role our government currently plays in our lives is ridiculously large. The fault for our government's size lies not in our stars but in ourselves. We've asked way too much of government. We expect it to fix everything, from the price of gasoline to the color of our neighbor's garage door to the pimples on our asses. We believe that if an action is right and just then the government should be the party to take that action. We can't trust individuals to act, because they might be motivated by that dreaded evil, self-interest. Government will be fair an impartial.

That's asking too much of anyone, but it seems it's what most Americans expect. Our news media and our politicians encourage that view. In an editorial shilling his new book Supercapitalism, former Clinton Secretary of Labor Robert Reich gives his definition of government: "Let us be clear: The purpose of democracy is to accomplish ends we cannot achieve as individuals."

That statement is way too broad a definition for me. It places no limits whatsoever on the power of government. It invites government to take on any problem, whether or not that problem is within its purview. I don't see government as the fix for all our problems. I see it as the fix for only one. Thomas Jefferson expressed this beautifully in the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

Government exists to protect freedom, which is something we're born with that other people just seem to want to take away. The idea that it should also put food on our table, money in our pockets, pills in our mouths and ethanol in our cars is quite a leap of bad faith from that original definition. Those who make that leap have recently reclaimed the title "progressives." They frighten me. They want to build a nanny state that does everything for us, maybe and maybe not remembering that a nanny is also prone to tell you what to do and where to go. (And most of them, you'll recall from the film, look nothing like Mary Poppins.)

There are those who would argue that, to enjoy freedom, we must also be guaranteed health, an income, a home, etc. I refer them back to Mr. Jefferson. He said, "the pursuit of happiness," not the guarantee.

For me, the proper role of government is to protect my rights: Help me keep thieves and invading armies off my land, stop those who would use force against me when I'm minding my own business, assist me in the enforcement of contracts. Perhaps assist in coordinating the use of shared resources like roads and rivers. All the other things we've come to count on government for are probably more than it should be doing.

And are there not even other ways that we can protect our property and rights without having governments? Well, the next question is, "Should government be eliminated altogether?"

And, on that note...




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[info]tychoish
2008-05-20 01:05 pm UTC (link)
Though I think your probably coming from the right place, and I also think that we have a critique american liberalism--I have one bone to pick with this kind of logic.

Government is one way to equalize the negative social effects of difference. In order for a unrestricted system to work and for there to be justice, I think everyone has to enter the playing field if it's level. I don't think we're *anywhere close* to a place where that kind of justice would be possible.

Arguably, we don't live in a world where the playing field is level, or any kind of real justice exists. So by decreasing government we loose nothing, you say? Granted, but then the libertarian position isn't substantively different from that of the CPUSA or most liberals (it's not perfect, but it's better--for me--than the alternatives). Which doesn't exactly inspire political enthusiasm.

Government is perhaps the best way that I can think of to level the field. To say, "this is important work in our communities, everyone has to contribute." At the same time--and this is probably the SF writer in me, but--I'd also accept the idea that a certain level of ubiquitous technology could have the same effect of leveling the playing field.

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Leveling
[info]cnvarbiter
2008-05-20 03:43 pm UTC (link)
You're right, we don't live in a world where the playing field is level. We're all born into different circumstances, with different native abilities, and different opportunities.

Any attempt to engineer equality from the get-go sounds like a recipe for fascism to me -- like Kurt Vonnegut's tales of the "Handicapper General" making sure no one has an unfair advantage. To ensure that the playing field is level, you have to take from some and give to others.

I don't believe any human being or group of human beings has the wisdom to do what you're proposing. Even if they did, I'm not sure they should. Taking what someone is born with -- be it ability or property -- violates that person's rights. It should be the place of government to protect rights, not violate them.

As to the government saying "everyone HAS to contribute," well, to me, that's outright socialism. Like Clinton's insane vision of "mandatory voluntarism" or Charlie Rangel's equally insane idea of re-instituting the military draft to ensure equality, it's not what government should be about.

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Re: Leveling
[info]tychoish
2008-05-20 05:09 pm UTC (link)
You're right, we don't live in a world where the playing field is level. We're all born into different circumstances...

That's what makes people, and society so interesting, and I think that in an ideal society difference should be supported, encouraged and valued, rather than used as a way to judge value, importance, and the distribution of resources.

And further more, I don't think you ca hold individuals accountable for structural differences.

Any attempt to engineer equality from the get-go sounds like a recipe for fascism to me.

I'm not particularly keen upon any kind of enforced equality, particularly as you note this kind of approach toward achieving social justice leads to fascism, because rather than pushing the culture to accept and value difference and diversity, it pushes society to say "the way to be fair, and make sure that everyone is treated with justice is to make everyone the same." That's a bad idea. No argument from me.

While a lazzie faire approach to government *might* lead to a different way of approaching social justice, it also might not. Treating people as the same--when they don't all come from the same circumstances and situations and abilities--or expecting that justice will happen if you hold people to the same standard, simply isn't true.

Individuals alone aren't able to overcome structural injustice, without some kind of organization of collective will (governmental or otherwise) injustice runs with a free rain. I'm not saying that unenlightened self-interest is a universal human characteristic, but I don't think that it would take a couple of generations post-capitalism/calvinism for it to wear off...

I don't believe any human being or group of human beings has the wisdom to do what you're proposing. [...] Taking what someone is born with -- be it ability or property -- violates that person's rights.

I'm not sure what you mean by "taking what someone is born with," but I'm just going to run with the following ideas...

You're probably right that people don't have the wisdom to get this right, as leaders are largely subject to the same prejudices and ignorance as the rest of us. Which is already the case now, except that as it stands now the ruling class' interests directly conflict with most everyone else's.

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Re: Leveling
[info]tychoish
2008-05-20 05:09 pm UTC (link)

This is sort of the "Social Worker's Approach to Dealing with injustice," but if government's job is to distribute resources (and thereby opportunity,) then it's very true that the role of government is to protect rights, but more importantly to protect difference. I'm not too sure of the pragmatics of this one, but I sympathize with the sentiment.

I don't think government can afford to ignore difference because acting as if people are all the same, doesn't lead to an end to disparity. Rhetorically and philosophically it sounds great, but pragmatically it doesn't work. If you don't provide protections/support for difference (of all kinds).

As to the government saying "everyone HAS to contribute," well, to me, that's outright socialism.

I suppose I have accept the charge of socialism at some point. And I also don't think that we have to agree on this at all. But I think you're generally proposing something pretty dangerous.

Everyone has to contribute to *something*. Given current population densities and standards of living, we couldn't all live off the earth by force of our own will and ability--and I don't think this has been true since the development of agriculture a few thousand years ago--so be it the government (via taxes), or labor to public institutions (the post offices, public universities, schools, etc.), or private institutions, we're all contributing to a greater/collective interest/will. Society is all about these kinds of collaborations, and I'd much rather contribute my time/labor to institutions and projects that benefit the common good rather than the interest of some rich white guy (or guys) who's only interested in his own profit. I guess this means that you can call me a communist now ;) It's ok, I'm ok with that.

Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars books spend some time thinking about megacorporations in a society with less government, and the one thing that I learned from those stories is that "big companies" and "big government," at least in the negative aspects (red tape, ignoring difference, etc.) aren't fundamentally distinguishable. Except that government is at least theoretically (and ideally) beholden to the interests of everyone.

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Re: Leveling
(Anonymous)
2008-05-20 06:25 pm UTC (link)
Well, I'm not sure a libertarian and a socialist or communist have much philosophical overlap. We probably both want people to have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and we probably both think it sucks when the little guy gets stepped on by entrenched interests.

But I don't necessarily count social justice as part of my agenda. Maybe that's because I don't know what it is. To some, it might mean equality of opportunity. To others, I think it means equality of outcome. I distrust most of the plans I've heard to deliver it. I don't think it's government's job to do so.

Nor do I think it's government's job to distribute resources. As you note, government is nothing but people, and people are selfish. Powerful people also don't understand what it's like not to be powerful. So government is, to me, a lousy candidate to distribute resources. I think that's what the market is for. Neither is perfect, but the market (UNsupported by government) is less prone to pander to special interests.

Interesting point about the Robinson Mars books. I haven't read them. But I would point out that Mega-Corporations in a society with less government could only occur after the Mega-corps had grown in a society with more government. Big corporations are not an artifact of market capitalism. They're the result of government pandering to special interests -- Rotarian socialism, as L. Neill Smith calls it. You're spot on that there's little difference between "big companies" and "big government" in the US today. Each serves the other slavishly.

I'd probably disagree with the statement "everyone has to contribute something" less if it were phrased, "it's in each person's self-interest to contribute something." I don't like being told I "have" to do something that I haven't decided to do myself. I don't consider myself free, if someone can dictate to me that way. But I do consider myself free if I have the option to do something or not do it, and the freedom to take the consequences if not doing it was a bad choice.

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Re: Leveling
[info]tychoish
2008-05-20 07:24 pm UTC (link)
Well, I'm not sure a libertarian and a socialist or communist have much philosophical overlap.

True, save for a) a critique of liberalism ("progressives,") and b) the fact that we're both making a critique of government as it is now:. Mostly, it's just a fun conversation, or something.

We probably both want people to have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and we probably both think it

sucks when the little guy gets stepped on by entrenched interests. But I don't necessarily count social justice as

part of my agenda.


Sorry, I rearranged your paragraph breaks/etc. for the purpose of my response.

I think advocating for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (which apparently was "profit," in the original drafts; which is a different argument altogether) is social justice. Particularly liberty. The little folks not getting squished by entrenched interests is also social justice, and I'd expand "entrenched interests" to encompass structural/cultural biases (eg, racial, gendered, sexual biases). Other than that, I'm not sure what you could mean by social justice.

Maybe that's because I don't know what it is. To some, it might mean equality of opportunity. To others, I think it means equality of outcome. I distrust most of the plans I've heard to deliver it. I don't think it's government's

job to do so.


I think I mostly resolved this above. As for pragmatics, I'm not sure that smaller institutions are more equipt to handle these sorts of things than bigger ones. The more people you have in an institution the less likely

So government is, to me, a lousy candidate to distribute resources. I think that's what the market is for. Neither is perfect, but the market (UNsupported by government) is less prone to pander to special interests.

Isn't the market to distribute resources on the large scale (like grain, medicine, and research funding, say) a market between/among special interests. (Without government, grain still needs to be made into flower and bread, and it makes little sense to do this kind of thing on the small scale.) And I'm not sure where individuals acting without some kind of governance can have any effect on the market to protect their interests. If there's a grain cartel, and they overcharge a lot, people either pay, or starve, and the grain sellers don't need to cave, because they can have whatever they want (because grain would be scarce they could trade for whatever, and they can eat, because they have grain.)

Markets can handle a lot of stress, and in the end what's best for the market is what's fair, I'm just worried that by the time we get to what's best for the market we'll all be dead, which contradicts the tenant in support of "life."

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Re: Leveling
[info]tychoish
2008-05-20 07:25 pm UTC (link)
Big corporations are not an artifact of market capitalism. They're the result of government pandering to special interests -- Rotarian socialism, as L. Neill Smith calls it.

You keep talking about special interests, and I'm not sure what you mean, exactly. If special interests are businesses and industry, it sort of seems like "big businesses exist because big businesses have too much influence on the government and it's rules." Then shouldn't the critique be of big businesses, not big government? And isn't the classical analysis that little government is in the best interests of big businesses? But, if special interests are some other group, then it just sounds paranoid.

At the same time, bigger units win against smaller units, in most situations (playgrounds, war, business, publication; though obviously exceptions exist, big beating small is a general trend), and corporations are more effective at mass production than smaller units. I don't think it's useful to talk about the history of industrial business at this point, but I'm not sure that you can satisfy supply and demand in most markets at this point without some sort of organized infrastructure.

I'd probably disagree with the statement "everyone has to contribute something" less if it were phrased, "it's in

each person's self-interest to contribute something." I don't like being told I "have" to do something that I

haven't decided to do myself.


The effect is the same, the contribution is the same. If you call "working" "sitting at the beach" and it makes you happy, doesn't matter much to me. If you call contributing to society (by working) "self-interested contribution, and benefit," it works for me. And anyway, the worker's life begins when (s)he puts down his/her tools...

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Re: Leveling
[info]cnvarbiter
2008-05-20 08:43 pm UTC (link)
By "special interests" I mean a group that comprises a minority (usually a tiny one) of the population, but which wields an inordinate amount of power. Such groups fiercely defend their interests, which often conflict with the interests, and, yes, the liberty of a much larger number of people.

The Motion Picture Association is a good example. Representing a very small number of very wealthy people, they have the power to tell Congress when to jump and exactly how high. And so they control copyright legislation, college funding, rules of evidence, and private property laws, all in the name of maximizing profits from movies. They've turned a civil issue (copying of intellectual property) into a Federal Criminal issue which one of our recent Attorney Generals thought was as important to his administration as protecting the country against terrorism. That's just one example. There are countless others.

As to social justice, I say I don't know what it means because I've never seen it defined. I've just seen it used in contexts which suggest that the person speaking means that part of social justice is redistribution of wealth -- taking money and property from those who, by someone's definition, have too much, and giving it to those who have too little. I don't believe that such actions are defensible as protecting life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. (And yes, the line was changed from Jefferson's original -- but I believe it was "property," not "profit." Many natural rights philosophers argue that all rights derive from the right to property.)

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Re: Leveling
[info]tychoish
2008-05-20 11:21 pm UTC (link)
So I totally agree with you that the MPA (and RIAA etc.) are totally misguided and are able to wield their cartel (as it were) to achieve a political goal which is contra to our interests as content viewers (and likely, as content producers as well.) This example/case is easy to make on the internet, but allow me to explore other possibilities. In part because the theoretical.

What about OPEC? The United Auto Workers? SFWA? The Writer's Guild? The Teamsters? (We might also consider the examples of the teamsters in the 1930s as opposed to the teamsters today.) The Coal Miners' Unions, or what's left of them? SCLC and SNCC in 1960? The NAACP in the 40s (or anytime I suppose)? What about the ACLU and the EFF? It seems that there's a fundamental difference between coalitions of people with common interests where rather than "a few people with a lot of power, beat the rest of us into submission" you have "a lot of people with a little power, who are fighting to keep their heads above water"

Collective political action is what makes society, well, social and civilized, and there are bad guys without question, but there are also good guys, and it's not difficult to imagine situations where organizing political groups and action could be really productive for society (and government).

*I've just seen [social justice] used in contexts which suggest that the person speaking means that part of social justice is redistribution of wealth -- taking money and property from those who, by someone's definition, have too much, and giving it to those who have too little. I don't believe that such actions are defensible as protecting life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.*

I think it's really difficult to attempt to adjust the present to compensate for past wrongs, in a pragmatic sense. At the same time I think it's impossible to say "we have civil rights now, so the playing field is level, so we don't need to talk about that any more." Or we could provide other examples. I don't think it insults anyone to say that past injustices affect present opportunities. I'm not sure how you address this, and I agree that redistributing the wealth is a poor way to do this.

Personally I'm in favor of finding some way to fund public education that isn't through municipal property taxes would be a good start. Good schools that aren't designed to alienate the student body would go a long way toward leveling the playing field. Pay teachers and child care workers more, have smaller classes, start at 9, do all year rotating schedules particularly at younger ages... I'm inclined to think that the more resources you put into people at the beginning of their lives, the more everyone benefits--but thats me.

In in terms of economics, I think regressive taxes (ones where the rate is flat so that where poor people pay more proportionally than rich people, like cigarette and gas taxes) are generally a bad foot to start off on, though, I don't have a lot of knowledge about the mechanics of these sorts of things...

Cheers!

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The American government does not exist to protect freedom
(Anonymous)
2008-05-23 11:11 pm UTC (link)
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect
union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the
common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

The American government does not exist to protect freedom - at least not exclusively. America's government was created based on what had existed previously with the goal of avoiding past mistakes. America's government continuously strives to do things better for more of its citizens; it does not exist in a vacuum or safely removed from reality. The most important component of America's chosen government is that it is made up of the people, by the people and for the people.

Promoting the general welfare is not building a nanny state; but it is
recognizing that the government has a role in helping people to get by. We can argue (well, you hate to argue according to your previous journal entry -- maybe exchange ideas is a better term) about the details of how far the government should go; there is no question that the government has a role. Promoting the general welfare would, by any definition, include seeing to the needs of those that are unable to care for themselves whether monetarily or through illness and disease. This would also include everything from agencies like the CDC and FDA to other common needs, like schools, roads, dams, levees, tunnels, bridges, fire departments and police, etc. Perfecting the union includes much more than good roads and safe borders. It encompasses secure and safe commerce system including banking, trade and markets. It should, of necessity, include protection of the environment. Establishing justice means more than putting people in jail, it includes protecting the poor and minorities (of all sorts) and ensuring against what is sometimes called the tyranny of the majority.

It is the 'family values' crowd that want a 'nanny' government to tell
people who they can sleep with, what to do with their own bodies, and to have laws prohibiting those deemed 'unfit' (gays, immigrants, etc.)from having the same rights.

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Re: The American government does not exist to protect freedom
[info]cnvarbiter
2008-05-24 01:53 pm UTC (link)
Here I see no room for argument between us, because we're diametrically opposed. The title of your post sums it up. If the government tries to provide a livelihood for people, instead of protecting their right to earn a livelihood, it cannot protect freedom. It can protect a limited set of rights, like who we sleep with, how we worship, what we say. But it can't ensure that we get to do what we wish with our own bodies. In order to provide a livelihood for those who don't earn one, government must take money from those who have it. Those who have it always includes those who earn it, no matter what lies are peddled about just taxing "the very rich."

If someone's taking my money, the product of my labor, they're telling me what I can and can't do with my body and my mind. And I would warn against the belief that it's only the family values crowd that tries to maintain a nanny state. FDR is an icon to progressives / liberals. He was the king of America's nanny state. Were he alive today, I've no doubt he would champion gay rights, and probably would want a liberal immigration policy. But he'd be strengthening his nanny state all the while.

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It's interesting about Jefferson
(Anonymous)
2008-05-25 01:45 am UTC (link)
Actually, Thomas Jefferson's phrasing is quite interesting. He says "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"... but the phrase is clearly echoing Locke, who says "Life, liberty, and estate."

Why the switch from "estate" (property) to "pursuit of happiness"? Perhaps because he wished to suggest that there were rights more fundamental than property... rights that should be protected even over those of property. Like the right to have meaningful economic opportunity--which Jefferson thought of in terms of owning land, owning one's own means of production. Modern welfare does not encompass the same ideal, but this is because of the realities of modern capitalism, not "nanny state" attitudes on the part of progressives.

More fundamentally, why would anyone suggest that government social programs have nothing to do with freedom? Social programs concretely enhance the freedom of the power, by weakening their dependence on abusive or exploitative employers and expanding the opportunities and services open to them. They also are themselves an expression of collective freedom, of the capacity for the people to decide for themselves what kind of society in which they want to live, and not to have it imposed upon them by the people who control the wealth.

Property itself, it is often forgotten, is an artificial creation of social regulation; we may be born with freedom, but we are not born owning factories. Its only value is its capacity to serve the public good--and if taxation or regulation is the way to help it better do so, in no way does that impinge upon anyone's rightful freedom.

You said earlier “In order to provide a livelihood for those who don't earn one, government must take money from those who have it. Those who have it always include those who earn it, no matter what lies are peddled about just taxing 'the very rich.” Funny, I’m far more put out by having my taxes applied to an imperial war based on a foundation of lies than to offer food stamps or rental assistance to someone earning $7.30 an hour at a big-box or fast-food store. Maybe it’s just me. Maybe John Steinbeck and Upton Sinclair have informed my thinking far more than Ayn Rand.

But, since we’re not arguing (because we are at opposite ends of a spectrum, or so you say), I’d leave you with some other views on the subject of wealth.

“Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.” Adam Smith

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government in a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." Thomas Jefferson, 1816.

And, despite my deep misgivings about religion,

“I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Matthew 19:24

I strongly suspect your committee of peers (anonymous and selected by you) will meet and let me know I’m unwelcome. TTFN

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Re: It's interesting about Jefferson
[info]cnvarbiter
2008-05-27 03:03 pm UTC (link)
Well, Anonymous, my committee of peers, being Anonymous themselves, is hesitant to ban you from their midst. You might be a long-lost cousin, after all.

Seriously, the only thing that's unwelcome is your hand in my pockets. And that's my objection to socialism, progressivism, communism, et al. It lauds what can be done by the state for some nebulous collective, rarely admitting that, to do all these grand things, it's got to take money out of people's hands against their will. That's not freedom.

And, returning to the point about not arguing, my problem with those I've argued with lately is the same problem I have with socialism: I can't tolerate people insisting that they know better than I do. I concede that some people are smarter than I, and that some people have knowledge I don't. Most of my recent opponents can't or won't concede that. And socialist states don't either. The conceit of socialism is that you (or some collective I'll call “you”) can use both my person and my property more intelligently than I can. Well, I think you're wrong. And if you can force me to act as if you're right, that's not freedom.

Jefferson? Jefferson was a complex and flawed person whose actions didn't reach the level of his ideals. He championed freedom but participated in the slavery system. He declared our right to independence from our governments, but ran a sometimes heavy-handed government as President. But I don't think you can stretch his inconsistencies far enough to say that he would have supported the welfare state.

Finally, I can't agree that social welfare programs increase freedom. What they increase is dependence on the state. Making someone more dependent upon you and others is not leveling the playing field. It's continuing the system of noblesse oblige which existed in the feudal system.

I enjoyed your selection of quotes, though. They've offered me some things to read up on. Except the Biblical one, which I already know well and have discussed often with others. Not having a problem with religion, I know its context, and I don't believe it's an argument in support of socialism. It says that those who are too attached to the treasures of this ephemeral world have a hard time envisioning or attaining the treasures of a more permanent spiritual world.

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Hello
(Anonymous)
2008-08-22 12:45 pm UTC (link)
I'm new here, just wanted to say hello and introduce myself.

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